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askye at 12:13pm on 26/03/2003
askye at 12:13pm on 26/03/2003Everyone's weighing in about Spike and Buffy and Wood and The Lies my Mother Told me and here's my take
First, I think the whole "My Mom loved me and yours didn't" speech Spike gave Wood was to demoralize Wood. Spike has in the past played off the Scoobies insecurities, there was a whole episode based around that. Spike may suck at long range plans but he is good a figuring out what a person's weaknesses are and working off of them.
Now, Spike may have just now realized that his Mum loved him and it was just the demon talking but I'm surprised it took him this long. What I'm thinking is he's still guilty about killing his mother.
About Wood and Nikki---Spike doesn't feel guilty about that and there's no reason he should, that's what vampires and Slayers do, they fight to the death. At least that's what they should do---Buffy are you paying attention? Fight to the DEATH!---
Spike knows jack about Nikki, he knows nothing about Wood except he killed Nikki and Wood has issues about his mother and Spike.
As for Buffy, Spike maybe her strongest warrior but she's got a huge blindspot. HUGE, she keeps saying "He has a soul." but the truth is a soul means jack when it comes to right and wrong. Warren had a soul and look where that got him. Andrew has a soul and he stil murdered his best friend.
Either Buffy is afraid that if she kills Spike then it's some how going to reflect badly on her relationship with Angel or that she's playing favorites. Frankly Buffy said she's not ready to let Spike go.
I was hoping Spike would kill Wood. I was hoping because I've wanted to see a souled, de chipped Spike who would make the choice to do something like that. Spike doesn't seem to be continually wracked with guilt like Angel, but then Angel's soul is a punishment and not freely chosen, Spike's soul is freely chosen.
As for the vampire is a demon that inhabits the body of the person and isn't the person. Well, I don't know. At this point we're very far away from that but I think you can fanwank it to say, and not be too far off that it's something the Watchers thought and believed becuase they didn't understand or really know vampires.
Except now we are seeing how vampires really are. There is demon in them but they are still the person they were before they were vamped, just the more darker meaner side of them is amplified. The Watchers have been known to be wrong before and how often have they been able to actually get to know vampires on a friendly basis?
It's fanwank.
As for Spike, what I really really want is to see him DEAD. Dust. Maybe Faith will do that. Please god let someone dust him.
Edited to add that I WANTED Spike to kill Wood. I wanted Buffy to go in and see Wood Dead. Dead, dead, dead. For her to have to see that even though Spike has a soul he still has a choice. And then she'd have to stake him. Because he does have a choice. He can chose not to kill, just like he chose not to kill Wood and he can continue to chose not to kill, but he still has that choice.
First, I think the whole "My Mom loved me and yours didn't" speech Spike gave Wood was to demoralize Wood. Spike has in the past played off the Scoobies insecurities, there was a whole episode based around that. Spike may suck at long range plans but he is good a figuring out what a person's weaknesses are and working off of them.
Now, Spike may have just now realized that his Mum loved him and it was just the demon talking but I'm surprised it took him this long. What I'm thinking is he's still guilty about killing his mother.
About Wood and Nikki---Spike doesn't feel guilty about that and there's no reason he should, that's what vampires and Slayers do, they fight to the death. At least that's what they should do---Buffy are you paying attention? Fight to the DEATH!---
Spike knows jack about Nikki, he knows nothing about Wood except he killed Nikki and Wood has issues about his mother and Spike.
As for Buffy, Spike maybe her strongest warrior but she's got a huge blindspot. HUGE, she keeps saying "He has a soul." but the truth is a soul means jack when it comes to right and wrong. Warren had a soul and look where that got him. Andrew has a soul and he stil murdered his best friend.
Either Buffy is afraid that if she kills Spike then it's some how going to reflect badly on her relationship with Angel or that she's playing favorites. Frankly Buffy said she's not ready to let Spike go.
I was hoping Spike would kill Wood. I was hoping because I've wanted to see a souled, de chipped Spike who would make the choice to do something like that. Spike doesn't seem to be continually wracked with guilt like Angel, but then Angel's soul is a punishment and not freely chosen, Spike's soul is freely chosen.
As for the vampire is a demon that inhabits the body of the person and isn't the person. Well, I don't know. At this point we're very far away from that but I think you can fanwank it to say, and not be too far off that it's something the Watchers thought and believed becuase they didn't understand or really know vampires.
Except now we are seeing how vampires really are. There is demon in them but they are still the person they were before they were vamped, just the more darker meaner side of them is amplified. The Watchers have been known to be wrong before and how often have they been able to actually get to know vampires on a friendly basis?
It's fanwank.
As for Spike, what I really really want is to see him DEAD. Dust. Maybe Faith will do that. Please god let someone dust him.
Edited to add that I WANTED Spike to kill Wood. I wanted Buffy to go in and see Wood Dead. Dead, dead, dead. For her to have to see that even though Spike has a soul he still has a choice. And then she'd have to stake him. Because he does have a choice. He can chose not to kill, just like he chose not to kill Wood and he can continue to chose not to kill, but he still has that choice.
(no subject)
I'd say not feeling guilty for killing people once he has a soul is a huge problem with Spike, because if he doesn't feel bad about it, what's going to stop him from doing it again? If the soul isn't a conscience, if he's only being good because he hopes to get back in Buffy's good graces (or pants) then stake him and be done with it, because he's a menace.
(no subject)
I don't think Spike should feel guilty for killing while he was a vampire because that's what vampires do, they kill. Spike wasn't big on the torture from what I ever saw he just liked the killing and the mayhem. Angelus liked to torture, but I don't think that Angel should feel guilty for that either, again, he's a vampire that's what they do.
Spike does have a conscience, he does have a choice. He can be choose not to kill for any number of reasons. Just because he doesn't feel guilty for what he's done in the past becuase he was a vampire and didn't have a soul doesn't mean that he's going to keep on killing.
He could decide that, independent of trying to stay in Buffy's good graces, that he doens't want to keep killing. Just because he doesn't regret or feel guilty for his past actions doesn't mean he's going to continue to keep doing them.
Personally, I was hoping that was killing Wood. I wanted him to make that choice of his own free will. He has a conscience and he has a soul and he can chose whether or not he wants to kill.
Angel has the same choice, Angel may not have killed anyone with his bare hands but he did lock the lawyers into the room with Dru and Darla. And he feels guilty over what he did when he didn't have a soul.
Spike isn't a meance unless he decides to start killing, which he hasn't. He could decide to leave Sunnydale and Buffy and never kill another human. He has that option.
(no subject)
Well, yes, I wasn't clear enough. People with souls do evil things all the time. Angel's had some moments where he's done evil things with his soul.
But if a conscience comes with the soul, then I'd think that William-soul would be horrified at Spike's actions, whether or not he's actually responsible for them.
I think any moral person who remembered that they raped and murdered their way around the world for 120 years would be horrified and remorseful. Because Spike's still got the demon inside, in addition to the soul. The soul is just an overlay on the demon.
I'd like to see some internal struggle, rather than a blithe "Oh, it wasn't me."
Now that he's detriggered, Spike may not be a menace. But I still wouldn't trust him.
(no subject)
Second, I don't trust Spike either. I'm wanted him to kill Wood. I wanted him to kill Wood and Buffy to be faced with that. I guess I wasn't clear, I'll have to go back and amend my entry.
However, I do think that Spike did struggle at the beginning when he first had his soul, part of it was the FE playing with his head but part of it was William/Spike. The part in the church, before Spike laid himself over the cross, that was Spike and William.
Oh yes.
I hope that volunteering for a soul and going through a trial to get it makes some difference.