(no subject) [Collected Thoughts]

I'm slightly loopy. Let's just say I'm slightly buzzed. You know a lot of times I don't say things in my LJ because I'm freaked about what other people will think. That's my big problem in life. Or I open my big mouth and stick my foot in. So I'm not caring what anyone thinks now and saying what I want.

I may regret this later.

I've seen stuff around in LJs before and I'm seeing it a lot now. About Firefly. How people aren't watching. Not because they don't like it but because it's taking Joss and Tim away from Angel. Because Firefly is the reason Angel sucks. And it maybe. Although I liked last season Angel over all more than last season Buffy.

But you know what. Saying stuff like "Now Tim and Joss can go back to Buffy/Angel where they belong" isn't very nice to Joss or Tim.

They didn't make Firefly to spit in the faces of Buffy and Angel fans. They made the show because they wanted to make it. Because this was their idea and they are proud of it, they worked hard at it. Not just them but everyone on that show. Cast and crew. Not just the cast that we watch and lust after and write stories about. But the crew. Men and women we don't hear about much.

This is their baby. Something they worked hard at to make it the best they could. And treating it like some kind of second rate piece of shit that is keeping Joss and Tim away from their "real" shows is ---it's fucking disrespectful

It's disrespectful to everyone involved with Firefly. It's disrespectful to Joss and Tim.

You think they are jumping around all happy that they can go back to their "real" shows. Hell no! They are disappointed that Firefly is cancelled and they are trying to figure out a way to keep it on the air. Find another network to pick it up.

So you know, you can rejoice all you want because Joss and Tim are going back to the shows you think they belong at. But just remember that they probably aren't rejoicing along with you.

December

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I'm sorry it didn't work out, because I feel bad for the fans.

But honestly, I can't say I feel bad for Joss. At some point, I think you have to say "I have enough on my plate." He didn't. Instead, he chose to make more and more. "Ripper." "The Animated Buffy." "Firefly." "Fray."

I don't begrudge his desire to have more creative control, to make more art, hell, to make more MONEY. It's a capitalist country, and he is talented, and he deserves to be paid for it. But I *do* begrudge him fucking his fans in the process. There is no way it is humanly possible to run three shows. Something is gonna suffer. So Firefly got canned, Angel's ratings are down, and Buffy's ratings are apparently the lowest they've been in a long time. No one picked up the animated series, and Ripper is languishing on the back burner.

The fans got it up the ass on all counts. I have a hard time being "respectful" in the face of that. Mostly, I just feel annoyed.

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Wow, you said a lot of what I did, only with more vulgar language. I've been outclassed! And yes, Whedon has a fair bit to answer for. In fairness to him, though, it's actually easier to get a new property on the air when you can point and say "Look, two of my long-running projects, still going". Network types love piggybacking on existing success. Waiting until Buffy has wound down to launch new projects would probably make more sense creatively, in terms of not spreading himself too thin, but it would probably make any new projects harder to market to execs. Either that, or he needs a stronger team running Mutant Enemy and his existing shows while he gets to be Idea Boy and come up with new concepts. ME has some of the most talented creative types in the business, but it sometimes uses them very badly.

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LOL!

I'm having a bad day, and saying fuck sometimes makes it better.

I bow to your superior, classier verbage. :} And I agree with everything you said.

Also? Damn. I can't help but want Minear to take over at AtS. Whedon doesn't know any of those characters anymore, as evidenced by the hideous Spin the Tabula Rasa Bottle redux. And Tim will just kill off all the dead weight, and make it his own.

Timwhore. Yes. That would be me, why do you ask?

He might even kill off Sidekick Boy (a.k.a. That Ungrateful Rat Bastard - Boy, If That's How He Treats His Friends, I Wouldn't Want To Be His Enemy) and the Twig, bitchslap Angel into not being quite so self-absorbed and anti-Championish, and maybe, just maybe give Cordy her old personality back. OK, so it's a bit much to expect him to fix *everything* that's wrong with it, but I bet he could give it a better shot than what we're getting now. And you're right, Joss no longer has a clue about Angel. One wonders if he even *watches* the show on a regular basis. Tabula Rasa worked for Buffy (in fact, it's one of the only two S6 Buffy eps I would definitely want to see *not* consigned to oblivion) but just because it worked for Buffy doesn't mean it will automatically work for Angel, an *entirely* different show.

See here's a point we disagree on again.

I thought that episode was really good. Okay, the actually execution of the spell was weak. It especially highlighted how much Wesley has changed since he first showed up in Sunnydale. And the scene between Gunn and Wes "so I'm the muscle" was very well played. Plus the de evolution of Liam from goof to thug to Angelus-y type. And the exchange between Connor and Liam.

OK, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Considering Tim has never offically stepped down from his postion at Angel and was only going to at the end of this season I'm sure Tim is quite aware of exactly what is happening on Angel.

When he comes back, if he decides to come back, I'm not sure the slash and burn you expect will happen.

He's not stupid, he knows where his bread is buttered (two B&B metaphors, I think I'm hungry), he'll come back- esp. if he never stepped down.

Yes, he knows what's going on. I have heard he's not thrilled with it. He's no C/A shipper in any case, and he is the darkest of stable of writers.

No, there will be no slash and burn, but I have hopes for some decent characterization again. And for heaven's sake, he's gonna kill SoMEONE off, he's Tim! LOL

Of course he kills people. A Tim episode feels strange without a body count.

But I'm tired and I'm loopy and I had a crappy day today (not talking about Firefly). I liked two new shows this season. Two. Boomtown and Firefly. I still love Angel and Buffy. And Firefly is mostly gone, but it may have a chance and I hope someone (UPN) picks it up. Because I want a space show damnit! (Not Enterprise, I don't like it). And I'm sure Boomtown will get cancelled, because it's intelligent and innovative and I'm sure it will be deemed "too hard".

Like I said, I'm loopy and I'm mad. A show that I like and I care about is cancelled.

I think this season of Buffy is awesome. I've enjoyed every episode of Buffy this season, most of the people I've talked to think it's one of the best season since S3 (which I still haven't seen all the way through). I thought last season started weakly but ended very strong. I enjoyed last season's Angel more than this season's Angel---although I thought last season's ending was weak. However I still see the potentional for Angel. I hate judging a season in the middle without seeing how the story arc plays out.

Besides Buffy is probably coming to a close anyway, and personally I don't want Buffy to go and on season after season just because th fans don't want it to end. It's not surprising that Joss is going to want new things on the horizon.

I like this season Buffy. But I liked last season Buffy too. The only season I hated was S4, but even that season had some stand-out eps. (Hush, Something Blue, Restless.)

(Don't get me started on Angel's epic journey from Champion to Moron.)

But again, I can't blame Joss for wanting to branch out. I don't wanna see S8 Buffy if he's done and it's just gonna suck.

But he is a piss poor manager of his resources, as RaincityGrl said (without profanity tho, so what's the point?? *G*)and thus, I, as rabid fan and thus part of his bread and butter, am annoyed.

I'm a weird ass Buffy fan. Only seen one or two episodes of Season 3, so I don't understand the big "it wasn't like Season 3" thing. Was never invested in the great love of Buffy/Angel. So I'm not much for the doomed romance thing either. Although I didn't like the Anvilly feel of the magic addiction storyline I did like the bleak despair of the season.

You got it up the ass. I didn't. I watch and enjoy all three shows, and that's one show more than last year, and I enjoy Buffy way more than last year.

It was a win-win for me, and the extra of knowing that Joss and Tim were excited, and that we got to see into a whole new corner of his stories, and got to see a new cast work with the old master ...

No, I'm not happy with the news, and I feel badly for all involved with the show.

Hey, I feel for the fans of the show.

But in a way, you guys got screwed as well. He couldn't make FF work because he *can't* juggle this many damn projects. No one can. It's ego, man, and it sucks.

And I feel *really* bad for the cast of FF. That's GOTTA suck.

Firefly, the show, is brilliant. And creepy. The creepiest,scariest, funniest damn thing I've seen on TV is War Stories. Last week's episode.

Firefly didn't suffer because of Joss. Firefly suffered because FOX never gave it a damn chance. They didn't air the original pilot---which I hear from anyone who's seen it is brilliant. They didn't advertise the show, instead focusing on John Doe or Joe Millioniare. It got pre-empted by baseball. Or the Brady Bunch movie (for God's sake).

Joss isn't to blame for Firefly's failure.

Interesting POV, and you have a point. I for one didn't blame Firefly for the problems with ME's other shows. I blamed ME for doing a lousy job of directing its limited resources to where they would do most good. Yes, an existing show can suffer when its creative team is cannibalized for a new show, as we saw in S4 Buffy. But that wasn't the fault of the then-brand-new shown Angel, just as any problems with the existing shows this season can hardly be blamed on Firefly. Although actually I thought S6/S3 were far worse than S7/S4 are shaping up to be.

However, to use a specific example which had a lot of people bitching about the 'Firefly effect', pulling Tim Minear away from scripting Angel S4 Ep 13 to write a Firefly script, and replacing him with David Fury, that wasn't at all Firefly's fault, as I have already said in another discussion. Minear was unavailable due to Firefly, certainly, but nobody held a gun to ME's head and forced it to give Ep 13 to Fury instead. They could've given the ep to a different available writer, one more suited to the material. I'll be as vague as possible here and try to avoid giving any spoilers. All I will say is that Ep 13 is rumoured to be a pivotal ep in the season's arc, and one not terribly suited to Fury's scriptwriting talents, which tend to lie in other directions.

So yes, ME will have fewer opportunities to screw up w/Firefly cancelled, but that's not Firefly's fault, that's ME's for doing a lousy job managing their talent. Also, I wouldn't be at all surprised, like you, if various members of the ME creative team were to continue working elsewhere. It's the smart thing to do, after all. Buffy is reaching the end of its lifespan, and who knows how much longer Angel will run. Branching out into fresher projects is a good thing for a writer's career.